Downtown
It strikes me as odd that with what seems to be a demand by citizens of the City of Twentynine Palms that there are not more places to shop. As I look around I see old buildings in need of face lifts and renovations, not to mention possible code requirement updates. Now I not just talking about development code updates to bring them into compliance with the cities current code. I also am talking about electrical, plumbing, gas, building safety, and even earthquake retrofitting.
I understand that there has been some discussion about allowing some past legally non-conforming structures to have continued use. Well that seems to go against what the General Plan called for.
As I read the Land Use Element under the Goals and some of the Policies that this city has already adopted there seems to be disconnect.
Goal LU-1 Encourage orderly growth and development as envisioned by community residents.
Policy LU-1.10 The City’s Development Code, composed of the Zoning and Subdivision Ordinances, shall be consistent with the General Plan.
Policy LU-2.1 Development shall be consistent with underlying land use densities and intensities.
Goal LU-3 Promote a high quality of life and by encouraging attractive high quality development that is compatible with existing uses and the city’s desert environment.
Policy LU-3.12 Encourage economically successful commercial and industrial centers that are functional, safe, attractive and convenient to users, and which will strengthen the local economy.
Goal LU-4 Adequately address the potential impacts of new development on the existing community and the City’s infrastructure system.
Policy LU-4.1 Consider and address the potential impacts of new development on surrounding properties.
Policy LU-4.7 City codes, including building and safety, zoning and land use regulations, and property maintenance codes, shall be strictly enforced to maintain safe, high-quality residential neighborhoods and commercial/industrial developments.
Goal LU-10 Promote a high quality of life for Twentynine Palms residents by developing and sustaining a strong and diverse local economy.
Policy LU-10.1 Encourage land use decisions that are fiscally responsible and positively affect the City’s economic health by creating jobs, generating tax revenue and involving private capital investment.
Policy LU-10.8 Maintain a strong economic base by targeting and attracting new uses that provide high quality development and meet important economic goals such as employment and revenue generation.
Policy LU-10.9 Encourage the expansion and attraction of small and medium sized businesses with growth potential.
Then let us look at the City in its desire to attract new businesses to Twentynine Palms. Take a look at their web site page.http://www.ci.twentynine-palms.ca.us/Business_Incentives_Programs.108.0.html
It still references the RDA. As most people know those are gone. It also talks about Business Incentives Program where they “will be glad to meet with you and assist your business with a smooth entry into Twentynine Palms. We are in contact with county, state and federal agencies that provide loan programs and tax credits to job-creating businesses. We can analyze your business plan and determine if there is a partnership opportunity for the City/Redevelopment Agency that we may be able to leverage.”
Not real cozy about that one or their ability to help when you have people that look as tho’ they would rather not have an increase is this city beyond mom and pop stores, tattoo shops, haircut shops, massage parlors, and smoke shops.
So let’s look at the local chamber of commerce. I thought that they were just here to be the local “Chamber of Events”. They should think about changing their name.
Their web site states that “The Chamber is made up of local and area business owners and citizens who work to improve the local business climate and further develop the economic base in our community.”
The Chamber President Chuck Caplinger seems happy with the status quo. “in a small city like ours, where we fall short of providing certain essential retail shopping experiences. Let’s face it, we’re for the most part, a community of small business entrepreneurs. We’re not a retail hub, we have no big box stores and, for certain items and services, we often have to look elsewhere.” And “I’m a believer in the “shop local””. He continues to say “There are many businesses that truly “serve” the community, with an attitude of, not only providing goods and services, but with a volunteering or helping hand.”
Really, where, who are we talking the same 12 each and every time? How about any of the 16 Massage Parlors, 9 tattoo parlors, 12 barber shops, 8 nail salons, 8 beauty shops, 8 second hand goods stores, 4 smoke shops, or the 6 full service bars are you talking about them?
Did you know that the Chamber lists over 250 members? Some include Costco, The Fabulous Palm Springs Follies, and Assemblyman Paul Cook. In all listed there were only about 170 that were even listed as being in the City of Twentynine Palms.
Hmmm? That is interesting.
Let’s take a moment and look at tourism. Take a look at the top 2 reasons to visit Twentynine Palms http://visit29.org/29_Reasons_Visit_29Palms.44.0.html .
“Oooohhhhh…” “Aaaaahhhh…”
Are you kidding me?
Now if this city can’t keep its only lumber store here what help is there for anything else? Why is the City Manager, the Chamber of Commerce, and the local Twentynine Palms Realtors (there are 15 of them) getting people and businesses into the city limits? Are they stupid or inept? Or maybe they are lazy, just sitting on their hands and waiting for someone to walk into the door so they don’t have to work.
What can these officials do to attract businesses? The key lies in building a better business climate, the panoply of public policies that affect investment, business startups, and profitability. A good business climate encourages people to start new businesses, existing businesses to grow, and national and international businesses to invest in an area. A poor business climate does the opposite. This city’s economic health depends greatly upon the nature and quantity of businesses that operate within its limits. Some business within Twentynine Palms generates zero sale tax. When businesses are spawned in a city or move to a city, the revenue they generate contributes directly into the city’s property and sales tax base. Look at what sells tax is generated by tattoo, barber, message, nail salons, and beauty shops. Most are cash and go.
The city can benefit from the additional revenue achieved by attracting new businesses. Some of the bigger or faster-growing cities place great emphasis on the economic development department within their chambers of commerce and city halls in order to actively increase the amount of business conducted within city limits.
Economic development has been an important concept to the health of cities since the origins of the monetized economy. More attention needs to paid to the active recruitment of businesses to grow our tax base.
This City has had a difficult time attracting the right type of businesses. Economic development specialists have to take into consideration existing infrastructure and the skill and education of their labor force. We have these people right here.
So Leaders, get off your duff and do something.
Why our city need better and more places to shop.,
Incoming search terms:
- benton brothers 29 Palms Highway Twentynine Palms CA
Barr Lumber closed because the company and it’s 6 or 7 branches could not compete against Home Depot and Lowes. The branch in Yucca Valley closed before ours did. The city council approved the position of Economic Development Officer about 2 years ago but due to falling tax revenue decided to not fill the position. I think it’s time to fill it. And as I’ve said in previous posts the way people shop now includes buying over the internet. Have you noticed the number of FedEx and UPS trucks that deliver in the city morning and afternoons. And the number of packages the Postal service delivers every day. And don’t forget the PX system on the Base. Granted they don’t allow tattoo parlors and massage parlors and smoke shops for health reasons. But if it wasn’t for health reasons there would be tattoo parlors, massage parlors and smoke shops on base. The base needs the income to support their sports and recreation programs for the young Marines and Sailors living on base. The hotels and motels cater to the Marines and Sailors on the Base but also provide lodging for the contractors who work on the Base. The Chamber has been historically concentrating on tourism. Retail development has been a city function. Note that we don’t have a NEW car dealership in the city. That would really increase the tax base.
You know Larry… Screw the PX…. The PX does nothing for the majority of those who live in this town. The majority can not use the PX, Commissary or any other business on base, so it is a mute point for economic development. In fact MCCS screws us all everyday.
While the “Base” might want to be our friend, MCCS wants to drive every business in town to bankruptcy.. They do not want the competition. MCCS is like the friggin’ Soviet State Store…. ZERO Competition. No one can break in, its a monopoly.
If the base wanted to be our friend and good neighbor it would end the exclusive contract for business services it gives to MCCS and open it up to the free market place.
This is exactly what made the US Grant presidency known as the most corrupt in our history….
The Department of the Navy and the Department of Defense must at some point investigate this institution for what it is, a Monopoly that sucks this town and our Marines dry.
There had to finally get that off my chest.
Good for you. Do you feel better now?
Larry, we also lost the second farmer’s market, a store front retail located in back of the ATM machines on SR 62. Code enforceable harassed these people so much it became a nasty ordeal. Now we all can eat Frankenstein foods purchased from the overpriced STATERS Bros. This is the most retain business unfriendly town I have known, and I know about small towns as well as anyone.
John Cole last night took a cheep shot at the last several businesses that opened up in town, one in which fought very hard and jumped through all the hoops.
If the fire department is downsized by 50%, and when the public and business are at risk 24/7 of burning to the ground and fatalities, who the F would want to invest in a hick town with lots of money but none for the most important thing a town provide, safety for the public and private sectors?
[I challenge anyone to prove me wrong about this. Kindly state your case.]
Frittering-away more money for a salaried Economic Development Officer isn’t gong to do squat for this small community situated to the East at the edge of 100 miles from no where. No industry is going to drive up two massive grades to a town where they cannot make a profit, and where their business, families and children are at risk.
29 is a small town and will always be a small town. John Coles dreams of making it something different is pure fantasy, and quite expensive.
What’s up next up in the foreseeable future after litigation would have been exhausted on Project Phoenix, and after the courts shut the doors on the town’s insanity?
Whats next is if John Cole is reelected?: With the helping hand of Mintz (who’s multiple business a little more that 500 feet away from ground zero that would materially benefit) and backed by bad-legal-advice-Munoz and a bond board of director who happens to be our City Manager, Richard Warne, is they will make a play on the City’s Reserves to build a playhouse in a building no-body needs.
Mr. Cole may be a nice guy (and I talked to him for the first time briefly this week at Desert Hardware and concluded he is indeed a decent person and nice guy), however, he wants to take this town down a very dangerous path of spending and putting the public in abject danger.
Frank, what do you say to Ben (Branson Hunter)?
I’d like to hear from you Frank.
Let’s see where do I Start?
Oh, I know. Before you do something check to insure that you are allowed to do it. Your mom should have taught you that.
The “second farmer’s market” ordeal that you are referencing that “code enforceable harassed”, please detail just what did they do to this poor business. What did code enforcement get wrong? What City code did they say that they violated?
What was the other things? Got it. John Cole cheep shot and salaried Economic Development Officer. Well, what was the cheap shot? And if I am recalling it correctly Steve Spears said that yes, the city has a position for a Economic Development Officer that to date has not been filled.
Details, details, details. Don’t be like Mark Clemons and say that the codes are wrong, and not tell us which ones. Don’t say that the County codes are better, when they are not.
Please enlighten us with your knowledge. Give us the facts, not the bull shit.
I have met John Cole, was not impressed then and I am not even now. I have not one-on-one met Joel Klink or Cora Heiser. I have listened to what they have said so far. When it comes to Joel, I think he needs to grow a set. As from Cora, well, I like her just her signs say informed but when asked about solar she had no opinion? I will be voting and so far Joel and Cora are a better choice not necessarily the best.
We will do this one city imposed obstacle at a time, let’s start with the 54 page of codes dictating what signage is permitted. New2 can you give justification for 54 pages of draconian regulation to put a sign to attract customers?
Stay tuned tomorrow we will discuss 29 palms parking codes city subsidized parking lots and waivers granted.
Ok, let’s take a look at the city sign code Mark. For those that want to fact check me Click Here .
It is 23 pages not 54. Covers subject ranging from Painted Wall Signs, Business Complex Signs, Accessory Signs, Freestanding Signs, Monument Signs, Projecting Signs, Roof Signs, Wall Signs, Special Event Signs, Moving, Alternating, and Flashing Signs, Prohibited Signs, Exemptions, Residential Zone Signage, Industrial Signage, Real Estate Signs, Temporary Political Signs, Offsite Directional Signs, Outdoor Advertising Signs, Historic Signs, Legal Nonconforming Signs, and a few other paragraphs.
The San Bernardino County, CA Code of Ordinances Chapter 83.13: Sign Regulations is 35 pages long. Plus there are individual references located in almost every other chapter in the entire county code.
Hmmm, the city did it better, shorter, and not as draconian or impossible to follow as you would like us to think.
Next Mark?
I was wrong it was 84 pages, been this road what happened to 23 thru 84, oh you think that is all 23 pages lol.
Well I can read dumb ass.
It is in PDF format and it comes out at 23 pages.
What’s your problem Obama? Have to keep spinning the facts your way?
Hey if agreeing that there is 28 pages will help you get to the question of whether or not I would be able to replace my sign with a duplicate I will yield, but please let’s get to the meat.
Do county codes permit me to replace my sign with a duplicate?
Already been told by the city manager and code enforcer that the city code would prohibit, and I would not be able to replace our historical sign. Oh by the way when the city informed me of this they set down with me and my son and had a copy of the 54 page sign ordnance / code.
There is a post on this tread where I invited you to discuss the disparity in parking code enforcement.
I will be nice, my wife said you might be the sensitive type, and I should apologize for the name inference, and that I do sir.
“Let us not seek the Republican answer or the Democratic answer, but the right answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future”.
John F. Kennedy
NOT 28!!! 23 idiot.
You do not even know how to read the code do you?
At the bottom center of each page is a number. That number is showing you which chapter your in then it shows you which page. Chapter 84, Page ##.
Let’s see about your broken sign.
What Do I care about the County Codes?
If we are talking about City Codes I can help you, but if I’m right you’re not going to like the answer.
I need info first.
How did the sign come down?
When did the sign come down?
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein
@Newto29, if you are Frank and if you are responding to Branson Hunter’s October 18, 2012 at 11:14 pm comments, please make that known to me.
If you are referring to the “cheap shot” I referenced, that pertained to last several businesses that opened; it had nothing to do with the Economic Development Officer position.
The harassment began upon opening. The officer was rude, obnoxious, and and unprofessional. That store front farmers organic market was targeted by enforcement and they relentlessness pursued a pattern and practice of selective enforcement against that business. BFD, they had a small sidewalk sign by their door, wher the market was located — on a side street that received very little traffic.
Kindly redirect your comment to me. If you want more, let me know. Btw, I enjoy reading your comments, but if it is me you want to engage,lets do it as though we were having an meeting-of-the-minds and were sitting down together. If you want to be antagonistic, I don’t have time for it. And if we were talking eye-to-eye that would be made very clear.
Thanks, BH
I apologize, I hit the wrong reply button.
You didn’t answer what the cheap shot was. You wrote, “pertained to last several businesses that opened; it had nothing to do with the Economic Development Officer position.”
What? I’ll wait for a better answer. Maybe you were mad and couldn’t type or have a coherent thought. Because cheap shot and Economic Development Officer and nothing to do with each other.
Now on to the market issue.
Were you there? Did you witness the Officer being rude, obnoxious, and and unprofessional?
If you are referencing the “A-Frame” sign. These signs are currently not a permitted form of signage within the community and their sing was placed within the public right-of-way. Which is just one of MANY things that you just do not do.
If you or Mark want to be bitchy about the codes then you need to turn you attention to the City Council the adopted the codes.
But you must recall that Jay Corbin was there when most of these codes were passed.
@Newton29. I’ll answer your questions as best as I can, as follows:
(1) The store front (organic) retail little produce business on a side street: I was made privy to the comment I wrote by the proprietor of the store, and was asked to not write a story about it because they feared the 29 Palms code enforcement officer. My comment was not HEARSAY; it is direct and credible evidence (admissible in court).If you have conflicting information, please put it out here. But no hearsay from third parties that were not present.
As far as the sign goes on the organic store that closed — it may be a restrictive code on sign, but that does not give code enforcement a license to be obnoxious and unprofessional. Moreover, it is selectively enforced because I see signs out all the time in a town – particularly during weekends.
(2) The cheap shot Mr. Cole made at the Chamber Forum about existing businesses in 29: The question to him was how to bringing new businesses to 29. Toward the end of Mr. Cole’s answer, he took a cheap parting shot about either the last several businesses that opened, or several businesses in town (my notes don’t reflect which of the two ways he parsed the comment).
Obviously, he was referencing the tattoo shop that recently opened at the Stater’s shopping center, and likely the other was a general reference to either massage parlors or tattoo shops in general. No matter – the Mayor was out of line trashing legit businesses. One in which went through all the hoops in their appeal.
(3) You suggest we the public shouldn’t be bitchy about the codes. Newt, this is THE place to discuss code issues. I feel the planning commission is doing their job and revising codes as best as they can. I watch the City’s online videos and it’s clear that the PC is putting in long and laborious hours.
When you have direct evidence (as stated above) of an errant code enforcement, that is not bitchy; its something that needs to be corrected.
(4) Lastly, your comment: “Maybe you [Branson] were mad and couldn’t type or have a coherent thought”. I asked you to be civil, yet you failed the civility test. If you want to be an asshole than that is your choice; I prefer we keep our communications open and civil.
Thanks
You do realize that YOU are the third party. How are we to believe that YOU know what actually happened if YOU were NOT there?
For the sake of an argument lets keep going. To quote you, “The harassment began upon opening. The officer was rude, obnoxious, and unprofessional. That store front farmers organic market was targeted by enforcement and they relentlessness pursued a pattern and practice of selective enforcement against that business.”
So how many times did code enforcement show up? 1, 3, 5, 25 times? You make it sound as if they were there everyday.
And how many violations did they have?
1.
Because again, you make it sound like there were a 101.
Now on to Mr. Cole. You do realize that the City Council screwed the pooch when they overturned the Planning Commissions decision to deny Underground Tattoos CUP.
Underground Tattoo went crying to the council that the commission did them a dis-service. The commission NEVER saw a power point picture show; they didn’t hear the poor stories of how good Marines were just begging for tattoos. Underground Tattoo scoffed at the commissions’ idea that there should be no smoking and loitering in the 10” front of their place. Also the City Council allowed them to open without a single condition. So there you are people standing in the walkway as people are trying to get to church with guys standing there shirts off and blowing smoke in their face.
Yeah the Council now realizes how FUBAR they are. They got the wool pulled over their eyes. Jay Corbin and Jim Harris have admitted to it. And sounds like John Cole has too. Jim Harris was the one that scolded the Commission then had the gal to say that the Commission has more stringent rules to follow than the Council does. Last time I checked the Council and the Commission have to follow the same rules.
As for the bitchy people and the codes. This is NOT the place to bitch about the codes. The place to be is at City Hall. You say that, “I feel the planning commission is doing their job and revising codes as best as they can.” , then you go on to say , “I watch the City’s online videos and it’s clear that the PC is putting in long and laborious hours.”
Instead of sitting on your butt watching someone else do a job by themselves why are you not at the Planning Commission hearings helping them? Let me guess you are going to have the same excuse as Mark Clemons. “..because I write it here, I’m voicing my opinion..”
Screw you!
From talking to a couple of the Commissioners and I think Mr. Alderson has said it here that the most they have had show up was 2 people.
Yeah you keep sitting on your ass while some else does the work. Then later on you can sit back and whine that the codes are wrong and over regulating. People like that need to keep there damn mouths shut.
You are way out of line and you are wrong.
I just talked to Jim Harris and he says, and I also know, that what you say he said is not true.
You need to get control of yourself.
The Planning Commission was out of line in denying the Tattoo establishment and it is clear that you also have a problem with mixing religion and freedom.
People can smoke in front of any church on any day of the week and wear what they damn well please to wear.
You and your religion be damned when it come to the personal freedoms of Americans.
So other than that everything else was ok?
I must have heard them wrong when they said it to me. My mistake.
Yo new2 don’t really want to go into the next topic “parking” until we can be done with the 54 page sign ordnance, let me know when you are ready I really want you to be able to understand why the citizens need to fire this corrupt city government
Hit me with it big’in, I’m ready!
I can’t wait to prove you wrong, inaccurate, and a bitchy whinny lil’ girl again.
New2 I will make this easy for you, we really need to get into the parking. If a traffic accident occurred, car left the roadway and took out the historical Smith’s Ranch Drive In sign, would I be able to replace it with a duplicate sign? How about if we were county? Don’t forget to first find and check those missing pages from the link you provided.
New2ered frank whatever your name is
I guess we can move on to parking, I would like to start with why is there such a disparity with the enforcement of your treasured codes?
I noticed that club Vo was put through the ringer with their parking while many others received a pass on all the same codes, seems how you got a handle on 29s codes what codes are used to get a pass like __________________ and _______________ and ___________( intentionally left blank but will fill in the spaces if needed but rather not)drive through town and have a look.
You see the problem is not that certain individuals get a pass, the problem the codes are used to hinder others in what I would call gestapo tactics. It should not be to difficult to understand how wrong it is to persecute my dad when he had parking on his land that he paid taxes on for a lifetime while at the same time giving passes to others for the very same thing.
You are going to have to fill in those blanks. Without reference I can’t answer you.
I had rather you drive through town and take a look, don’t feel right taking pitchers and creating problems for the hard working businessmen and woman. You see it is not that the city does not enforce the codes the problem is selective targeted code enforcement, the disparity should be obvious.
I would or could see attending planning meetings if I was seeking a code modification or plan approval but that is not what I am seeking. I am trying to inform the citizens of the waste and abuse that dominates small local governments, I am advocating for the abolishment of the crooked city.
Let’s hope Sacramento is working on a fast tract disincorporation procedure.
NO. You said some people got a pass. Who was it?
Let’s try a little reverse reasoning here, what or who has had to jump as high and spend as much as Club Vo? There are many dirt lots permitted by the city, they are easily observable without me having to point the figure. Then there are those like larry B and Gerry M that received Taxpayer subsidized parking.
The only thing worse than being blind is having sight but no vision.
Helen Keller
There is such a thing as legal non-conforming. Your little area falls under that if I not mistaken.
So what is your point?
“Honestly, if you were any slower you’d be going backwards.”
― J.K. Rowling
Frank I guess it is how one sees legal non-conforming, If you have a business that is permitted to code then a new entity come along decades later with a new set of codes, who is non-conforming? I don’t have the citations to back this up, but there is something called natural law that dictates the new entitys codes are non-conforming to the established norm; therefore the targeted has the protection of grandfather clause. As we travel down the road to tyranny many have been brained washed to believe that it is the other way around, where the new entity is conforming while the old established business is non-conforming.
Yes there are other business just as mentioned that are grandfathered from the new entity (city) but I think you know those are not who I am referring to, I am asking you a strait forward question, Why did Club Vo have to spend and others get a pass that should have had to meet the same codes? What happened to equality, fairness? , and people wonder why we have such a limited choices.
“Honestly, if you were any slower you’d be going backwards.”
― J.K. Rowling
“Honestly, I am waiting on you”
- Mark Clemons
Again Mark, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Try growing a brain or let someone else explain the Non_conforming to you. You are wrong wrong wrong.
Now back to parking.
You have mentioned the Vo and no one else.
Who are they? Who are others? Details, facts.
Frank there is many disagreements, when the time comes and it will, the courts will have the final say. Any demand by any government entity I will obey. That said I will always be a good American and exercise my due process to the fullest.
I will also exercise my right to speak out against any government agency that I believe is advancing us future down the road to tyranny. 29 palms with their hierarchy is on my list, you see you can’t say there is equality when Club Vo had to spend big bucks and Williams insurance receives free parking, well I guess it wasn’t free it came from funds that should have been going to schools and such.
You remind me of someone that would complain about the %47 while approving of welfare for the local cronies.
Please continue I get a kick out of your lack of common sense.
Mark you are talking smack. Club Vo was not put through a ringer. I was there. No ringer and they got modifications like most do when they work within the framework.
You just do not want to seek exceptions or anything else. My hats off to you for standing on principle.
Of course we see how far that has gotten you.
Thanks for the recognition Steve I don’t get much go figure. I know you were there maybe you could shed a little light on why Club Vo would have to get modifications after spending the bucks they did on their parking, mean time Gerry m. is receiving tax subsidized parking on his property.
Mark,
Who is Gerry m? What property? When did this whatever it is happen?
All of these things are important. Why? Because the parking regulations have evolved over the years.
Just like penance has evolved over the years what used to cost me 10 Hail Mary’s and 10 Our Father’s now cost 5 signs of the cross.
All things change some for the better others for the worse depending on your point of view or more importantly upon the impact upon yourself.
Steve I am referring to the Williams insurance parking lot, I know it was back in the RDAboodoggle days, and was approved under the auspicous of value through increased taxes. You may have been around when some along the highway were givin a pass new businesses like bistro, coyote comes to mind. If memory serves me they were permitted to open with non code compliant parking.
The disparity in how local businesses are treated is undeniable, now we are talking if I would be able to replace my sign at my expense, and the connected is about to get a taxpayer provided off sight sign.
We really need to look in the mirror and ask how the hell did we transform 29 to this sad state
Mark you are mixing apples, oranges, and apricots together and it is a mess.
I will leave you to your thoughts.
Steve you are correct.
Mark you are wrong.
@newto29,
I didn’t say that I had no opinion to solar fields, although that was what was reported. I said that I had not researched it enough to make an informed opinion and that radio interview was several weeks before they aired it. I stated my opinion on Solar at the forum. What I did tell the radio station that got cut, was it is an expensive form of technology at the present time, yet I felt that as with all technology price would come down making Solar a more viable form of energy for most folks. I prefer solar energy that doesn’t leave such a large footprint as solar fields, but other than the towers as seen at state line, not much else has been invented. I didn’t correct radio station, because I felt they had been really good with condensing my answers correctly on all the other questions. and thanks for considering me as your city council representative.
Not to point out the obvious but there were a few meetings, both Planning Commission and City Council, over about the last 2 years concerning solar.
Did you miss them all? Did you miss reading the staff reports or minutes? How about the videos, miss them too?
Have you spoken to anyone about the subject, Planning Commissioners or Community Development Director?
Any of the above might have given you enough to have an opinion.
I agree with you on that Farmer’s Market – it closing down had nothing to do with Code Enforcement. According to the radio it was us renegade “Bloggers” that drove mind you, drove, that poor business out of town. Oh yea!
The city does have a position for an Economic Development Specialist that is unfilled. Thank the Lord. It would be another high paying wasted position.
I too will be voting for Heiser and Klink. We agree!
Steve, I think we are talking about 2 different farmer’s markets. There was Lori Herbel’ at the Plaza that closed by what you call Bloggers. There was a 2nd Farmer’s market in the building behind the BofA ATM that I think Ben is talking about, Have I got this correct?
Hi Steve,
The Farmers Market in question isn’t the one that closed at Historic Plaza. It’s was the store front behind the BOA ATM machines, one block North of 62 – Farm Fresh Express. They too closed due to a lack of business. However, the absence of their little (approx. 32′x 28″) sidewalk sign they had on display helped close that business. Not many knew it was there.
Now, we take our business to Joshua Tree and shop out-of-town for farmer’s produce.
29 is beginning to evidence it’s headed in the direction of a dying town because the city council is still empire building with Project Phoenix — with nothing to show for a their $31 million bond debt but administrative costs; bureaucratic costs, consultants fees, and attorney fees in the hundreds of thousand of dollars.
Moreover, if the city failed to help fund (partner with) the fire department this will substantially be the last nail in the city’s demise.
Copy on the correct market. I have no information about that store at all.
As for the sign again i would have had to see it in order to understand.
Steve,
It’s behind the BoA ATM’s. I checked on it with the Community Development Director when I was a PC. According to him, it is a indoor Farmer’s Market which is a permitted use for the Commercial District.
Ben, I don’t know why the market on Cholla closed. On an off street with little traffic exposure? The Plaza farmer’s market closed because once the newness and novelty wore off, people, especially military, remarked that the freshness and the crispness of the produce wasn’t great. What was offered was produce left over from the Saturday morning market in JT, the one you are now patronizing. The produce at Stater Brothers and the commissary was fresher mand better than at the market. And it wasn’t the bloggers that did it in.
All I will say, Larry, is I would sacrifice my little toe to get Proposition 37 passed, the Genetically Engineered Foods Labeling Imitative.
This would pave the way for cleaner food.
Carry on Larry, you’re a good guy.
Ben, the number of food and seed producers that are exempted under 37 is staggering. It’s a “feel good” idea.
Larry, isn’t there anything we can agree on? I am completely behind Initiative 37, the labeling of genetic altered foods. Frankly, I’ve stopped eating soy drink and tofu as well as corn as a side dish due to the dangers of GMOs. These bastards are positioning the children of California and the entire population.
Take a look who is behind GMOs… who’s funding it… who speaking against it… Is nauseating. The passage of #37 I believe will inform people what they are putting into the bodies on 80-90 percent of the foods in grocery markets.
That is a good thing.
Ben,The left leaning, environmentalist friendly L.A. Times came out AGAINST Prop 37 yesterday. They said there were too many loopholes.
Barr may have HAD to close, but, did the City or the Chamber do a damn thing to avert it?
So by requiring all these fixes would be sure to be beyond the means of some business at this time resulting in the closure of a number of them. That would lower the tax base. A more logical way would to make sure any building is up to code before the licence is issued for a new venture.
For a building to be brought up to code before a new venture moves-in??? Are you crazy??
That would require the property owners to spend money! Oh heavens to murgatroyd!!
But wait, I maybe too sarcastic.
Dan O’Brien is correct. The city is a friend to the base, but the base is NOT the cities friend. If the MCCS had it’s way NO Marine or their money would ever leave that base.
Let’s look (from MCCSs own web site http://www.mccs29palms.com/pages/misc/PnC.html ) at the Demographics:
Active Duty Military…………………………14,535
Family Members………………………………11,780
Retired Military [who reside in Morongo Basin]…..1,149
Civilian Personnel [who work aboard MCAGCC]……..2,466
CAX/Mojave Viper…………………………….50,000+
Total Market………………………………..79,930
How about what they offer on-base:
Charley’s Grilled Subs
Charlies Coffee House
D’Carlo’s Italian Café
Decal Depot
Enterprise Rent-A-Car
Extreme Pita
Fish-A-Licious
Get Wet Scuba
GNC
Jasmine’s Espresso Café
Jamba Juice
Mark Pi’s Express
Nathan’s Famous
Starbucks Coffee
Taco Bell Express
Tease Shirts
The Veranda Restaurant
Walter’s Pizzeria
Yogurt Blast
Wow, you would think that some of that could find its way into the city limits. Fish-A-Licious was, if memory serves me correctly.
Point is the city is losing not because of codes as some would have you believe, it is that the base offers it better, makes it look better so the base wins.
It is time that property owners do what they need to do. Fix your shit! Especially not that RDA is gone and you can’t get it done for free.
The drive in has and does successfully competed with the base theater, dirt lot and all. Now if someone wanted to go through the draconian city codes like my dad attempted when he was going to put in an indoor they would be a sure failure. It is easy to blame MCCs but my experience is that the private sector will kick ass if they are not hindered by the local N_zie PC. Prior to cityhood we did just fine competing against the base, I’m not going to get into what we had back then.
Many of the health department codes have changed over the years for the better and you know what when a code makes sense we update. Goofy PC codes dictating colors, material, and so forth we ignore and exercise our grandfather rights. I would have to say the theater is minutely profitable because of its grandfather status, city codes be dammed.
Fire this GOD DAM CROOKED CITY and watch the harnessing of that base payroll by the private sector, it is the city that protects the perceived MCCS monopoly. All those businesses on the base would like the freedom from having to deal with MCCS, but they have to choose the lesser of two evils. There is not much if anything that the government can compete with the private sector for.
Mark,
With all due respect, you do not know what you are talking about.
The MCCS on the base is a PRIVATE enterprise. It is not run by the Government. It is named Marine Corps Community Services hence MCCS. It is in the profit business not the Morale and Support business that Larry thinks it is and not what Larry remembers as do most of us of the old MWR system or Morale, Welfare, and Recreation.
To be blunt with you there is no business out in the city that can compete with them and the base knows it and so do all the business that the gentlemen listed in his post.
Your Drive-In survives, barely, because of its uniqueness.
The base has “codes” Mark – ask Dan about his code encounters with the base in regards to his hot dog cart. The insanity of that battle far outshines what 29 Palms has in place.
You be a burr under their saddle and they not only scratch but kill the horse…
Some coast and then some never get off the beach.
You think that the Town is arbitrary try the base. All I know is I have the equivalent to an “A” card by the County and believe me they are the toughest county in California to pass. We are sad we were not given a fair shake but we know in our hearts we were not the problem.
Steve
Really, MCCS is about as private as Amtrak, We could argue the benefits of being a for profit government corporation until the sheep come home. The PO with its monopoly sure kept UPS and Fed Ex at bay, give me a break. I will stand by my post that the government cannot compete with the private sector without the private sector stifled by undo codes.
Survives barely, barely because of its uniqueness Steve I know you have not had to deal with commerce and value so you might not get this,, but we prosper in this very hostel business environment by providing our customers value, your statement is very revealing.
The base like many malls have their unique rules / codes agreed, I don’t think they require nearly all the requirements like road improvements parking many thinks the city demands. A mall like the base provides the roads light and other off sight improvement usually funded by the citizen’s tax dollars but RDAs are gone. Now progress and growth will come from individuals.
I hope you weren’t talking health codes, that my friend is a whole different animal that has not one thing to do with the city.
Relieve the burden of off sight improvements and I will build and compete with MCCS
Mark, Steve said it before me. But I’ll repeat it for you.
You do not know what you are talking about.
If you did then you would know the in the new proposed language color is out, your swap meet is in.
So, show up, watch, listen and then maybe you will have a clue as to what is going on.
Newto29, you need to drop that 50K+ of Mojave Viper/CAX Marines from your potential patrons of town businesses. The VAST majority of them get no closer to Town then Main Side on Base, if they get any liberty at all.
new2 add five guys burgers, we start on it mon.
Are you going to open a 5guys or is it going on the base?
base, son doing the demo.
Best of luck to you both
Hmmm..
Larry these guys – I mean 5 Guys did not even sniff at city hall. No opportunity at all for the city to say we can make you a better deal. None, Nada, Zip!
So the Base is not in competition with the city……….
Steve, You know Mark’s feelings toward the city. If he and his son has the frnachise, they never considered locating in the city. Notice that the MCCS
website states that they have 80,000 customers as a market.
No larry we don’t havee the franchise my son was hired to do the demo work.
Larry,
Please – the Base is a direct competitor with the city.
How can you explain the explosion of commercial establishments on the Base in the last 5 years? Starbucks, Italian Restaurants, and big time burger chains.
Is our city that onerous Larry? You and I know that not to be true. So please tell me why these businesses are locating on base instead of out in town.
I am all ears.
Steve this for your response below. (there’s no reply button on my screen) I’ve never siad they are not in competition with the town. It is obvious that they are. How can they get away with it? Cause they say their market is 80,000. What can the city do? What did you suggest when you were on the City Council. My eyes await your response.
Glad that you asked Larry.
I can’t remember exactly when it started going South.
I feel that it was maybe in 2008 when Starbucks decided not to build at 62 and Adobe in conjunction with the Base claiming that they needed more housing out in town and as a city we were not accommodating them.
I do not think at that time I openly called them out on their strategy.
However, towards the end of 2009 I did mention the issue at a council meeting.
Admitting that the base is an economical problem for the city is one thing. But figuring out a strategy to compete with them is a whole other story that I have no answer for at this time.
I do think that unless we as citizens of this city realize the dangers of the Base and its economical dominance then we shall be held hostage.
Do I have a plan to change that problem that I think you will agree exists – no I do not.
That is one of the reasons I did seek to run for a third term. A leader needs to have a plan and I was not able to think of one to compete with the Base.
I am working on one but I am sure it will not sit well with some.
Steve, where do the profits of MCCS go? What are they used for?
Larry,
Marine Corps Community Services (MCCS).
MCCS programs are vital to mission accomplishment and form an integral part of
the non-pay compensation system. These programs encourage positive individual
values, personal development, and aid in recruitment and retention of personnel.
The MCCS programs provide for the physical, cultural, service and social needs of Marines and other members of the Marine Corps family. They also provide community support systems that make Marine Corps bases/stations temporary hometowns for this mobile population.
Cora, Do they pay for rock concerts, fireworks, movies, gyms, tours?
Larry….. Concentrate…… What do they do for the average citizen of this city? Other than the tax revenue that helps pay for bloated municipal salaries and do dads… what do the do to enhance the lives of those of us who do not have a base pass? Seriously quit looking only as far as your small cadre of retired buds and look around…. Larry there is unemployment and poverty that makes Mississippi look like a economic dynamo… Come on….
We are talking about the whole city not just the few of you who have the bennies of military retirement. Most of us did our obligation and went out into the job market. How does the vast majority of the town excluded by what will be touted as security concerns of the base get any benefit from MCCS?
Dan, Think. When you were in the Air Force, did the AF PX system do anything for the town you were in? Did they ever let you off the base?
In my day it was the BX and the Commissary and that was it.
Was there a U.S. town outside the gate?
Yes.
Great cut and paste Cora…..
Just using my research skills and thanks….
It’s called a mission statement
I think you saw Cora’s answer.
Here is the problem as I see it Larry. When the old MWR charged a fee for bowling, golf, wood working, auto shop, etc, and etc. all that money went back into providing those recreation services for the active duty family.
But comes along MCCS and they sell everything from televisions to furniture to coffee and pizzas. Sit down restaurants and all the brand names that used to be out in the “Ville”.
You can not say that the base is not in direct competition with the outside world. In fact I think you will see a direct correlation between the demise of business out in 29 due to the increase of diversity offered by MCCS over the years.
Larry, they wanted us to build more housing a few years ago in order to support their not wanting to build their own on the base. In good times that is fine but when the boys are not home and off fighting some war the girls and kids move back to moma and papa and we here in 29 see a glut of rentals.
The base is a problem Larry and we need some very strong leaders on our city council to stop them.
Just my humble opinion. I was a Marine also Larry but I know when I am being undercut and so do you.
It’s called a mission statement.
Steve, The new system was meant to make the support system self sufficient and not use appropriated federal funds.The old system had a lot of appropriated funds. The new system has some appropriated funds and a lot of non-appropriated funds. What are your thoughts on the Commissary system?
Off topic Larry but what are your thoughts on that letter from the State in regards to Project Phoenix?
I kind of notice that you have been a bit reserved about that posting. Maybe you missed it?
I’ve seen the copy of the letter and I’ll reserve my opinion for a future date. Like I’ve said before: the game anin’t over till it’s over.
I have no problem with the commissary because as you can see 29 as well as Yucca supports numerous grocery stores and they do well.
I do not think 29 can claim the same when it comes to furniture – had a few but now all gone. When it comes to appliances and televisions, had a few but now all gone.
Yucca is hanging in there because it can draw the peeps from 29 that can’t use the MCCS system and is in the center of the transportation node.
Lets not go through all of this again. 29 can not compete with the base until about 15,000 people move into Wonder valley – then we have a chance.
Steve, By virtue of the internet, the continued improvement of 29 Palms Highway and the cost of maintaining inventory with rapid turnover 29 is in a bad position for mom & pop businesses. Barr Lumber is an example of a smaller chain falling to the giants in their field. Poor inventory procedures. Kelly’s Future moved from 29 to YV years ago and is still going strong. Good inventory control and service. NAPA closed but Auto Zone is going strong. Good parking. Tony Dindio’s TV repair shop is no longer there. Who repairs TV’s these days? Ardella Cook’s travel office is gone. Who doesn’t purchase their travel tickets over the internet these days? Beth Wiederhold’s “Bookworm” folded due to buying over the internat. You are correct that we need about 15 to 20 thousand more citizens. Hpoe they settle in Desert Heights. Dan wouldn’t like that many in Wonder Valley. And I remember when I was in Det A, 3rd FSR on the base from 79 till 82, one of the big complaints from the troops was that there was no place in town to buy quality furniture. The other was the high price of milk at 7 day store.
Correction:I was at DetA from 79 to 81. And remember Homestead Lumber that had a store at the top pf the grade in Yucca and was in 29 where Barr was. Homestead folded also.
Was that before or after Muskets and Bayonets?
After the muskets but we were were still using bayonets.
Muskrats on Bayonets are delicious!!!!
Tastes just like tortoise…
I’m a city boy and didn’t get the play on words.
Anybody that thinks 29 Palms will ever see a big box store is delusional. The same for a New Car Dealership.
The City Council that voted way back in the day to keep Walmart out sounded the death knell for 29 as a business-funded city.
when did this happen?
From what I recall it was after the City had refused to allow Stater Bros to open a store within the City limits. Which of course didn’t keep Staters away since they simply stepped outside the City limits and asked the County for a permit. The County was very eager to get all that sales tax without having to share it with the City and approved the request.
That led to the eventual expansion of the City all the way to Joshua Tree to prevent a reoccurrence. A side affect of that expansion is that the City outgrew the Water Districts boundaries and greatly expanded the the Fire Dept’s service area without providing enough new Water District customers to offset the increased costs. Leading DIRECTLY to the situation the City finds itself in now vis-a-vis the FD
Just like the City tried to “protect” The Alamo and Plaza Markets against Staters, they also later “protected” Benton Bros from Walmart.
Check your facts. You are wrong.
Thanks for the well thought out informative reply.
The city limits were established in 1987 when 29 was incorporated. Stater Brothers was always in the city limits. The water district is distinct from the City and has it’s own agendas and budgets. What has Benton Brothers in 29 got to do with Walmart in Yucca?
Steve, It started to go down hill over 20 years ago. The MCCS is a profit oriented entity. It is their business plan to offer services so that no one needs to buy off base. Their profits go to pay for concerts, car shows, etc. It would not be possible for the city to put the base off limits You can’t call them out cause they don’t care what you think. What can you do to them? As I’ve said before, people’s purchasing patterns have changed with the internet, widening 62, and big bos stors. One of the problems MCCS faces is that most Marines and Sailors who live on the base own cars. Cars give them the freedom to leave the base and go to Club VO, Palm Springs or San Diego. During the week, they go to the “PX” and buy a six pack and go back to the room and nuke a fronzen meal, drink a beer and play video games, watch TV. They are a business problem for the “PX” just like the “PX” is for the city. There is no simple solution. But the City approved the position officer a couple of years ago. Hir him or her and let hom or her put his or her expertise to work. He or she could go out and extol the benefits of locating in the city. Smoozing the prey. Maybe buying some land to give to the developer. Would you call this an emergency that would “allow” the use of surplus funds over 2M?
“position of economic development officer”
All good points Larry but that is not where I was thinking on going. The Economic Development Officer position is a shame and a total waste of money.
But I will concede that provided the city hire an outside the city person I might agree.
At the time that this position was proffered it was clear that Mike Tree wanted to hire Kevin Cole. That was a non-starter in my book so I have opposed the position ever since.
My thoughts are that as a city we must provide commerce a win-win scenario. That would include General Fund funded infrastructure construction.
There is nothing we can do about sales tax and property taxes unless we opt to refund to the business those property taxes that we as a city collect if that can even be accomplished.
We can beat the Base if we decide to do it and understand that they are not our economic friends.
Again, just ideas that surely need to be worked out.
I would agree to hire someone outside the city provided they had some experience. Let’s just not call them a consultant. I would agree to a tax rebate. General fund infrastructure would mean using some money over the generally accepted $10M surplus and I agree with you on that. It’s not a case of beating the base, it’s realizing the purchasing habits of local consumers have changed and we are at the end of the road. Tourism is our best bet.
It is a strange world. You and I agree on almost all things. I also agree that tourism is our best bet and that is why I fought to have new General Plan constructed.
You bought and add in the paper to fight me on that one – remember?
However, as much as I wanted that new General Plan for a path to success the various factions in our city watered it down so as to be something for everybody.
I have said it over and over again – if everything is important then nothing is important.
We had our chance to the tune of 1 million dollars to devise a General Plan that was specific to success and the likes of Pat Flanagan, Paul Smith, Jim Ricker, the Park, and all the others, took a shotgun and fired at the wall and today we have the same old no specific plan at all.
We had our chance Larry and I spent a whole bunch of political capital on moving this city forward. Some people just did not like how I said it and we are paying the price today.
I was never any good at politics and that is why even to this day I deny the label “politician”.
What ad did I buy? I volunteered for the advisory committe and didn’t get selected. You are a very succesful politician. You look like you are already ramping up for 2014.
The “We are not Victorville” add. Or Am I confusing you with the other Larry Briggs?
I am pretty sure it was not Jack Briggs but memory fades….
Well for 2014….. let us see what happens in 2012.
That was a letter to the editor replying to one from you saying we’d end up being like Vivtorville. I said no way cause we don’t have a railroad or a freeway. But like you say that was several years ago. Time to look to the future and go for tourists who like small friendly townd.
Hey Dan you might give us a recap of this tread it has been all over the place, and seems to be ending with the need to hire another employee, yep that is going to fix or change the hostile business environment, eliminate the basse competition, and create enough value to entice out of Towner’s coming in and giving us retail. lol If we don’t fire this city we are in for a long hard hall, meanwhile Joshua tree with county codes that are less restrictive will thrive, simple and undeniable.